Sunday, July 23, 2006

Best Goalies of All Time

One sabermetrics and hockey problem is ranking the best goaltenders of all time. Pnep (Roman Nepomnyaschev) has created a Hall of Fame monitor which includes goaltender win statistics and their success winning awards. He is regularly updating this system to include more fine refinements (ie. more awards). An earlier version is reported by Daryl Shilling.

These systems are limited in that creditting goalie for wins will lead to gloaltenders on good teams being preferentially selected - even if the team wins because of the other players on its roster. Using award victories to select top goalies makes you dependant upon the voters of the time, who may make mistakes (for example this year it was a mistake to make Martin Brodeur a Vezina nominee). Nevertheless, given the complexity of goaltender statistics, most depend on the quantity or quality (or both) of shots the goalie faces, it is hard to make a more reliable goaltender rating method to rate goaltender careers. A system such as this one fails entirely in identifying seasonal success (ie. which goalie should win the Vezina this year) as that information must be an input and cannot be deduced from its results.

Nevertheless, here are the top ten goalies according to the hall of fame monitor that Daryl Shilling reports. Daryl's numbers are not updated for the 2005/06 season. I chose to update this (instead of pnep's current full system) because it arrives at nearly the same result and is simpler. Any bias errors in the system are not corrected by adding more awards to it.

The top 10 goalies of all time according to this system are:
1. Patrick Roy 3104 points
2. Dominik Hasek 2996 points
3. Glenn Hall 2539 points
4. Jacques Plante 2484 points
5. Ken Dryden 2320 point
6. Martin Brodeur 2174 points
7. Terry Sawchuk 2031 points
8. Ed Belfour 1661 points
9. Tony Esposito 1634 points
10. Bill Durnan 1613 points

This is definitely a list of good goalie, but I don't think it is a fully accurate ranking of the best goalies of all time. I think this is best shown by the ranking of Terry Sawchuk as the seventh best goalie of all time. Most hockey observers rated him as the best goalie of all time, prior to Patrick Roy breaking the all time wins record and Hasek winning back-to-back Vezinas. This system ranks Sawchuk behind several of his contemporaries. I will write something in the future too look at this problem and see why it occurred.

Comments:
Where does Garth Snow rank on this list? That would be interesting to know.
 
Garth Snow - 129 "HHOF PTS"
 
Look...Hasek Sucks Roy is a Showboat he even scored on himself by showboating and Belfour hasn't been good since he played Chicago!....Mine Would Be

1.Vladislav Tretiak
2.Ken Dryden
3.Tony Esposito
4.Bernie Parent
5.Gerry Cheevers
6.John Vanbiesbrouck
7.Mike Richter
8.Glenn Hall
9.Jacques Plante
and finaly
10.Curtis Joseph
 
Mine would be,

10.Jaques Plante
9.Jonny Bower
8.Vladislav Tretiak
7.Gerry Cheevers
6.Ken Dryden
5.Patrick Roy
4.Cristobal Huet
3.Tony Esphosito
2.Glenn Hall
1.Terry Sawchuck
 
What happen to Martin Brodeur on the list?? Think about it
 
my top ten would be:

1.Sebastian Caron
2.Rick DiPiertro
3.Ron Hextall
4.Ron Tugnutt
5.Peter Skudra
6.GARTH SNOW
7.Tim Thomas
8.Dominator
9.Patrick Lalime
10.Roy Emery
 
Well actually you are all retarded, 1.Sidney Crosby, if he were a goalie hed kick ass
2.Thibault
3.MOOSE
4.sKUDRA
5.Tugnut
6.Wregget
7.Hextal
8.Barasso
9.Snow
10.Caron
 
anytime u talk about best goalies of all time u have to take into consideration what era u grew up in, i grew up in the 70's and my top ten are 1. Ken Dryden 2. Bernie Parent 3 Gerry Cheevers 4 Ed Giacomin 5 Tony Esposito 6 Billy Smith 7 Mike Palmateer 8 Gilles Gilbert 9 John Davidson 10 Rogie Vachon
 
It is stupid for anyone to name the ten best goalies of all time, because to do that, they would have to have seen every goalie play,- several times.
The best that any of us can offer is to name the ten best goalies THAT WE HAVE EVER SEEN.
For me,- Terry Sawchuk is the obvious first choice for the best goalie that I have ever seen- but then, I never saw George Vezenia play.
 
so dumb Brodeur is #1 510 wins 97 shutouts most wins in a season and last season 12 shutous!
 
i hate your list you think GARTH SNOW
IS GOOD I WOULD NEVER SAY THAT IN MY WHOLE LIFE.I HAVE NEVER READ SOMETHING LIKE THIS. This is sonshashell that is the worst list of all time.
 
My list is 1 hasek 2 roy 3 broduer 4 sawchuk 5 dryden 6 plant 7 miller
8 biron 9 esposito 10 luongo 11 worsley 12 tretiak 13 legace 14 vachon 15 kiprusoff. now comepare this to your list.
 
all time best goalies
1.hasek
2.roy
3.brodeur
4.dryden
5.sawchuk
6.parent
7.tretiak
8.esposito
9.plante
10.hall
 
i have garth snow ranked as the 725th best goalie of all time, just ahead of my son's friend,jack.
 
look at your crap list you actually tink GARTH SNOW IS NUMBER 6.you do not know anything about hocky's best goaleis.
 
you think that hasek stinks werr have you ben you werdeo
 
George Hainsworth.

Montreal Canadiens
(1926-33, 1936-37)

Toronto Maple Leafs
(1933-37)

Rookie Year: 44 GP
14 SO's, 1.47 GAA (Vezina)

Sophmore Year: 44 GP
13 SO's, 1.05 GAA (Vezina)

Third Year: 44 GP
22 SO's, 0.92 GAA (Vezina)

He's over-looked because it's so far in the past and he didn't make any long-term accomplishments. If a goaltender posted stats like this now, he would be considered legendary, though I will say, hockey has changed. Still, he should still be recognized, when 50% of the games he played were SO's. That's an unbelievable task regardless. Goalies have 82 games a season now and still nobody can touch such a milestone.
 
Can someone provide statistics for Vladislav Tretiak. I've heard him get loads of credit but have not seen a single statistic porving him to be as good as he's made out to be.
 
There have been great goalies on horrible teams in the passed. Luongo is a perfect example and should be recognized. John Vanbiesbrouck gets no credit either. Number 1 US born goaltender in the history of hockey.
 
Are you guys hockey fans or what.

Want stats i will provide plenty..

George Hainsworth is the best goalie to ever play. In 1928-29, he set an all-time record with 22 shutouts and a 0.98 goals against average while only playing 44 games. And in 1930 he set an NHL record that still stands, going 270 minutes and 8 seconds without allowing a goal during the playoffs for the Canadiens. Has the lowest career goals against average tied with Alex Connell and He is the all-time leader in professional shutouts with 104 (Third in the NHL with 94). Imagine if he play a full season of 82 games. Oh ya he also has the first 3 vezinas and 2 stanley cups. Hainsworth also served as the Canadiens captain during 1932-33, becoming the first of only three goalies to serve as an NHL team's captain.

Anyway here is my top ten.
1. George Hainsworth

2. Vladislav Tretiak (greztky said he was trying to be picked up by the NHL even long after his glory years with Russia and he still was the best goalie in the world, never go against the Great One).

3. Terry Sawchuck (Ranked 9th on The Hockey News' list of the 100 Greatest Hockey Players, the highest-ranking goaltender).

4. Martin Brodeur (When he Retires he will be the leader in wins and shut outs. He has 3 vezinas and 3 stanley cups. Oh and he's 1st place - Combined shutouts (118) - Both regular season and playoffs
Most overtime wins (45)
Most consecutive 30-win seasons (12)
Most consecutive 35-win seasons (11)
Most 40-win seasons (6).

5. Jacques Plante ( the man had 7 vezinas and a hart trophy. Led the league in goals against average 8 years the most number of times of any goaltender. 5 Straight Stanley Cups!! and not to mention he is the smartest goalie ever he invited the freakin goalie mask)!

6. Glen Hall (3 vezinas and 3 cups one as a goalie. Nicknamed "Mr. Goalie", he was one of the first goaltenders to develop and make effective use of the butterfly style of goalkeeping. he was ranked number 16 on The Hockey News' list of the 100 Greatest Hockey Players

7. Dominik Hasek (6 Vezina Trophies and 2 hart trophies. oh ya in 1998 Wayne Gretzky called him "the best player in the game. Again Dont argue with the Great One).

8. Ken Dryden ( He won 6 stanley cups and 5 vezinas, he was ranked number 25 on The Hockey News' list of the 100 Greatest Hockey Players).

9. Patrick Roy (I know it seems low but really Roys numbers aren't as amazing as the people above. after broduer breaks his records he wont have any except play-off records which is why he is #8 and not #10).

10. Grant Fuhr (He won 5 cups and a vezina but the real reason is becuase Wayne Gretzky has said on many occasions that he believes Fuhr is the greatest goaltender in NHL history).
 
hasek is the best goslie of all time period and detroit is briging home the cup retards and garth snow sucks
 
any one who thinks garth snow is any good is on drugs and mentaly retarted
 
I'm glad someone mentioned Fuhr. I guess you had to be there. I agree with the Tetriak comment, Espo & Dryden. Maybe Cheevers. Jacques Plant (just from his reputation and the clips I've seen). Rogie Vachon...okay maybe cutting the line there. As for modern goalies Roy is deserved, as is Brodeur. The thing about goalies is you have to show up when it counts; AND consistently and you can't really use arguments like...''ya but look at the team he waa on" or "he had a great defence backing him up". So Kipper, Luongo and the other new kids don't cut it. I'd have to round out my list with the debateable but spectacular (and solid as a rock) Cujo.
 
I'm glad someone mentioned Fuhr. I guess you had to be there. I agree with the Tetriak comment, Espo & Dryden. Maybe Cheevers. Jacques Plant (just from his reputation and the clips I've seen). Rogie Vachon...okay maybe cutting the line there. As for modern goalies Roy is deserved, as is Brodeur. The thing about goalies is you have to show up when it counts; AND consistently and you can't really use arguments like...''ya but look at the team he waa on" or "he had a great defence backing him up". So Kipper, Luongo and the other new kids don't cut it (poor consistency). I'd have to round out my list with the debatable but spectacular (and solid as a rock) Cujo.
 
tretiak has to be considered one of the best...its hard to find sats on him just because those communists were damn god at hiding stuff but to play at teh highest caliber in the world for as long as he did and be as succesessfulll as he was has to speak for itself...my top 5 would go
#1 - Tretiak
#2 - Roy
#3 - Hainsworth
#4 - Plante
#5 - Broduer

it pains me to put broduer on the list because i dont like the man but hey you cant argue with his production
 
First off your all wrong
#1 Fleury
 
Lawl. I grew up watching the following goalies. In my opinion the best is:

1) Brodeur. Consistent and has never left New Jersey

2) Curtis Joseph

3) Ron Hextall

4) Nikolai "The Bulin Wall" Khabibulin

5) Patrick Roy, I will agree with the person who said Roy is a showboat. Canada got stuck with a Bronze due to him not letting Broduer any time on the Ice.

6) Ed Belfour

7) Mike Dunham. Brodeurs understudy :\

8) Tomas Vokoun, for sheer effort.

9) Marc-Andre Fleury, young, but amazing.

10) Myself. High school goaltender, best save percentage in the league.
 
My top ten list would consist of Chuck Norris.
 
This first anonymous guy is oviously a Rangers fans, and so am I. I can't believe that Billy Smith who frustrated me throughout the 80's is not even mentioned once. Not the greatest but deserves to be in the conversation.
 
1.Nabokov
2. Nabokov
3. Nabokov
4. Nabokov
5. Nabokov
6. Nabokov
7. Nabokov
8. Nabokov
9. Nabokov
10. Nabokov
 
Some of these lists are absurd. Anyone leaving Billy Smith off is insane... 4 Cups IN A ROW, and NINETEEN straight winning playoff series...

My list:

10. Grant Fuhr
9. Dominic Hasek
8. Tony Esposito
7. Billy Smith
6. Ken Dryden
5. Jaques Plante
4. Vladislav Tretiak
3. Terry Sawchuck
2. Martim Brodeur
1. Patrick Roy
 
Thanks for sharing such an interesting post with us. You have made some valuable points which are very useful for all readers
 
Terry Sawchuk was the most over-rated (along with Gerry Cheevers, Grant Fuhr, and Martin Brodeur) goalie of all time - just an opinion.

Maverick
 
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You are right, Hockey has been changed a lot over time and makes harder to track that kind of skill with another rules.
 
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